Fullbody vs. Split program
G'day peeps...
I've heard a lot of serious bodybuilders saying that fullbody is the way to go...to get big
but with my own experience, i really dont think so...but what is your opinion?
i've had a 2 month fullbody program, worked out 3 days a week...and really no muscle mass at all
then i had a 3 split program for 1 month....and worked out 6 days a week...and i gained a good deal muscle mass
well, now i went to a new gym, and got another fullbody and it bores me to death...i want my 3 split back
but is it a good idea after a 8 months break cause of a minor shoulder injury???
my trainer has made a fullbody program for me, and everything is on machines, my opinion machines are boring and i hate them, i got no motivation at all to go, since i dont like my program...
any good ideas?
regards,
romah
thanks a lot Shawn...i
thanks a lot Shawn...i appreciate it :-)
im just lookin for an answer to if the program i made is good or need changes??? *s*
***You're never lost, only misplaced***
The whole body megaset circuit routine for lean mass gain
I made the most gains in strength, mass, and definition with a bodypart split routine too. It's the way most lifters prefer to do it once they get serious and experienced.
However, studies have also show three things:
1. Full body routines stimulate the most muscle fibers. This leads to more growth due to increase GH release.
2. Compound excercises involving multiple muscles and the larger muscles lead to more muscle fiber activation and more GH and more growth. This would be squats, deadlifts, chest press, should press, and powerlifts like the snatch, hang clean, clean and jerk, and push press. A lot of these excercises don't fit neatly with just one bodypart.
3. Circuit routines build muscle endurance, burn more fat, and again increase GH release and stimulate more muscle growth IF they are done at full intensity. You can usually do this by not doing the circuit training too quickly. Lift the reps like you normally would. Do each set with full intensity and to failure like traditional straight sets. Take a minute of rest between excercises and 2 minutes after each circuit of 2-4 excercises, before repeating that circuit. Do the circuits, so you end up doing the normal number of sets per excercise you normall would.
I took the following three ideas and came up with my application of them. I built 3 days worth of full body circuit workouts. Each day's circuits (usually 2-3 circuits) involved a rotation of excercises starting with the lower body, then the ab/lower back, and finally the upper body. This adds in a form of circuit training created in the 60's/70's (by a bodybuilder) that forces the body to push blood for the top to the bottom of the body and back. It taxes the cardio system and allows you to get a cardio affect by keeping the heart rate high, not just from the circuit effect of the routine, but also from having to push blood back and forth.
The routine works. It is great for building muscular endurance and the cardio effect helps with fat loss, which leads to definition. You can do higher reps, but I would go with moderate to low reps and heavier weights. You can easily build strength/mass and lose fat this way. Obviously, since it has a cardio effect and a high heart rate that stays elevated, you won't bulk up as fast, but then you won't have to deal with gaining fat with mass on this routine.
The elevated heart rate and circuit effect won't affect your weight lifted on the excercises, if you take 60-90 seconds rest between the excercises and 2 minutes between each circuit. The reason is that you are letting each muscle rest when you are doing the excercises for the other muscles. In this way, you find the increases challenge is on your cardiovascular system. The muscle you are working for a particular excercises has actually had at least 2-3 minutes to reset since the last set for that bodypart's excercise.
No problem!
Romah...sounds like you know what you need to do girl!!!! Go out and get it!!! And we will be here for support every step along the way!!!
Shawn Myszka, CSCS
Explosive Edge Athletics
thanks Shawn
Hey Shawn...
yeah i agree that my trainer should recognize and notice when i dont have any motivation...but i've been in this gym once before and the same trainer gave me a great 3 split program and i loved it, but now i only worked out on and off for the last 9 months, and she wanted me to start with a "basic" program, to wake up my muscles...
i agree with that, but if i dont like the program cause its all machines, which i hate, then its not gonna make me go to the gym as planned and i wont get to work out at all...
so now i think if i get a good program together from in here and see results, then i'd rather use myfittribe than my trainer...
i know that people with no time for gyms would need a fullbody program
but i got nothing but time...so i can do with a split program...and i want a split program with crazy results
im sure you're a good trainer...you seem like it :-)
***You're never lost, only misplaced***
FB vs. Split
This is definitely an interesting topic of discussion. I have 2 sides here of the argument...I guess one for each angle. Now, when I was bbing (and Romah...for your goals too), I would definitely say that there has to be somewhat of a split. When I was training at the national level...DAMN...I wish I could say pro level like Jamo-LOL! But I digress, my program was split like this;
Monday-Chest and Biceps
Tuesday-Back and rear delts
Wednesday-OFF
Thursday-Delts, traps and triceps
Friday-Legs
Sat and Sun-OFF
And it stayed that way for years!!!! Like Jamo said, if its not broke...what is there to fix?!?! I went from 155lb in 1998, to 270lb in 2005 at the same % body-fat. Granted, I was doing some things that most people are not going to (nor that they should), but the point being, is that I was making huge gains off of this program and the training had a lot to do with it.
The flip side is. sometimes we have all athletes/clients, who can't specialize for one reason or another...not enough time to devote to the gym, not enough experience in the gym, body can't adapt to given stressors, etc...these are the types of people that I would incorporate full body type programs for. But bbers...not a chance in h**l!!!!
On the athletic side, for most of my athletes, I do split up upper body and lower body. However, b/c of the way sports are played....I want/need the body to work all as one...so full-body movements (such as Olympic lifting, resisted/assisted jumping, etc) will be used to get the body/neural adaptations firing as one. Again...this is a totally different animal compared to what you are looking for Romah...I just wanted to go at both angles.
In any event...I think there is something to your last comment...if you are not believing in what you are doing...your trainer needs to recognize this...b/c even if it was the best friggin program in the world...you aren't going to see optimal results...and if you are not having the motivation to go...again...the best program isnt' worth a handful of spit...machines, free-weights, or needles-LOL!
Shawn Myszka, CSCS
Explosive Edge Athletics
Great post Shawn ...
..with you all the way .
Good Split
Hey Shawn, Great post! Yeah that is one of my favorite splits too.. I did almost the exact same routine for a long time.
split program
3 x 10 - 8 - 6
Day 1: chest + triceps
benchpress
cable cross
pec deck fly
decline close grip skull crusher
dumbbell tricep ext.
cable tricep ext.
Day 2: back + abs + biceps
bent over rows
stiff leg deadlift
back hyperext.
chin ups
seated cable rows
hammer curls
alternate incline dumbbell curls
scott bench
abs cable seated crunches
abs decline crunches
jamcore abs circuit
Day 3: shoulders + legs
arnold dumbbell press
dumbbell shoulder press
front dumbbell raise
legpress
deadlift
squats
standing calf raise
2 days off
and then start over, 4-6 weeks, and then new program
is this an alright program..???
***You're never lost, only misplaced***
hey guys... thanks a
hey guys...
thanks a lot...
yeah this is exactly what i have been thinkin myself, i know the machines wont do much right now, so getting a program only with machines really doesnt motivate me at all...and to be honest, i went to this new gym 1st of May, and i have only been there 1 day, no motivation at all...
i like the split program cause then i can focus on 2 bodyparts a day, and have more strength to lift heavier and add more each time...
when i first started i had a fullbody and i gained no muscle mass...
then i went to another gym, and got my first split program and it was amazing what happened...
within 1 month, i went from 22lbs to 99lbs in benchpress, and that was within 1 month...3x8
i went from 4½lbs to 17½ lbs in less than 2 weeks...biceps curl free weights...3x8
and i went from 176lbs to 264lbs in legpress in less than 3 weeks...3x8
and im only 4'10"...and 118lbs
this motivates me, but i know i can not do that with machines...
i just wanna make a program and put it in here later today...and pls tell me what to change if i need to change anything, ok?
this place is fantastic!! xoxo
***You're never lost, only misplaced***
Split is the way
I never liked or grew on full body training , actually never made sense to me to train that way , until i created the jamcore training system . I did that because i wanted to get a good complete workout to gain strenght , flexibilty and core functional strenght .
In the old days when i use to compete , i always trained split body part , basic hard core compound movement were the meat and the potato of my muscle gain .
One of my split routine was
Day 1: Legs
Day 2: Back and Biceps
Wednesday Off
thursday : Chest Triceps
Friday : shoulder triceps / abs
Saturday : Hamstring / Squats ( needed more size on my quads)
after the Saturday I will start My training again on tuesday and not monday because i needed an extra day to recover ..(don't ask me how I did it , but the drive to become and IFBB pro was enough)
From 1989 till 1996 , all i did was Squats, barbell rows, pull ups , barbell curl , bench press, Incline press Barbell curl , Front squats (loved them!!) hacks ect....
My body weight went from 180 lbs , to 260 off season at 15 % body fat . I never touched machines, the only machine I was doing was seated pulley , pull downs and triceps push down .
The beauty about using all the compound movement i mentioned before , is you recruite more fibres to work , the result more density and better quality .
In 1998 , Hammer strenght and Flex machine came out and started using them a lot , next minute it reflected on the way I looked on the stage , not dense enough . I got the shape but the size lacked
1999 when I got my pro card , I went basic again and the result was 10 pound of beef that year . I love compound basic movements ...they work , people are just too lazy , they use machines.
Don't get me wrong machines have their benefits too, but if i had the choice i go free weight
So Romah , tell your trainer to stop F*%ING around lol lol , and get busy .
Actually its good for you to to learn this way ...Remember if its not broken , why Fix it !!!! go back to what worked before , you were gaining size .
One point I want to add is , I was on 7 meals a day and around 6000 calories
Periodization
Hi Romah, Splits or not, your body will only respond to so much of the same kind of training day after day, week after week. But more about that later.
Fullbody routines are great for when you are beginning or just starting out because (as you know), your primary movers and secondary supporting muscles are all very unused to the exercise. You have the stage of neurological recruitment where your body will throw on a lot of mass to deal with the new stress of the unfamiliar exercises. But your body is an adaptation machine, so if you throw repeated stress at it without ever changing the volume, duration, and intensity, your body will adapt to the stress and will not grow any more.
Also, I read your statement about machines. Most machines (again as you probably already know) are great for the gross motor movements and for specifically isolating one muscle group, but that is their greatest failing. Think about the huge difference in doing a standing bicep curl vs doing it in a machine. Standing, you recruit many different muscle groups, whereas in the machine you isolate only your biceps. In my opinion, I think you should avoid machines like the plague until you need them for a specific reason.
Now it is a generally well accepted fact in strength training that you should use compound movements wherever possible to stimulate maximum muscle growth and increase muscle mass. This means sticking with exercises like, squats, bench press, bent over rows, deadlifts, clean and press, military press, close grip bench etc. These types of exercises have the highest % of motor unit recruitment, and this has been proven through electromyographical research. These kinds of exercises also help stimulate the release of testosterone. It is an old joke that doing squats helps you build bigger biceps.
Is your shoulder injury 100% better? If it were me, I would be starting out doing the basic compound moves and going from there. I would do 1-3 large warmup sets and then do 3 sets of 5-8 reps per major bodypart 3 times per week. So I would go in and do:
15 mins cardio warmup
stretching
1x12 reps warmup @0-5% 1RM
1x12 reps warmup @10% 1RM
1x12 reps warmup @20-30% 1RM
5x10 reps @50-60% 1RM
I would do this for each major bodypart with the following exercises:
Bench Press
Squats
Deadlift
Bent over Rows
Shoulder Press
I would follow up the workout with:
stretching
10 mins cardio (flush the lactates)
If you are sore on the next workout, you are going to hard and need to reduce the intensity.
I would probably do a workout like this for 6-8 weeks and then move on to a hypertrophy specific split routine.
I would make sure to be getting lots of protein and rest and recovery in between days. And if you aren't getting at least 8-10hrs of sleep a night, forget about it. You NEED sleep. All of the best growth and anabolic hormone releases peak at the end of your sleep cycle.
Also, maybe you already know this, but if I were you I would study periodization and macro/microcycles. It is important to vary the intensity and duration of your workouts even during the week. So say on Monday, you may choose to have the least amount of intensity (40-50% 1RM working load), gradually peaking on wed (say 60-70%1RM working load), and then reducing the intensity until the next microcycle starts again next week. Also, in periodization, we have different cycles such as anatomical adaptation, hypertrophy, maximum strength, recovery, erc. Periodization is a PROVEN technique over and over again, but it is complicated and requires an intelligent trainer and a long term plan.
Lastly, you will want to look at your overall training volume. Not a lot of people do this, but I find it helps me to look at the total amount (just by adding up all the weight x reps x sets) I lifted in a workout and compare that to the previous workouts. Sometimes I get over excited and totally over do it in the gym. Even though I am not aware of it, I am in a state of overtraining and need to take a week of very low intensity to let my body recover. When you train hard your body secretes all kinds of chemicals that help mask the pain of overtraining and injury, and bodybuilders can be the worst for just walking away from the gym.
Anyhow, great discussion, I would love to talk more about this.
Trust your body, switch things up
I have to say trust your body. If you're not enjoying yourself when your working out to some point, your not going to put as much effort into it and you wont get as far.
I like focusing on certain body part I want to work on. One day, or maybe for a few days, I'll work on one or two parts of my body, then I'll move on to sometihng else, then come back later.
On the other hand, if you feel like working on everything one day, why not? As long as your not overtraining certain things and undertraining others, you should be fine.
I don't think its a good idea to do any particular excersize program for a long period of time for two reasons: 1) you get bored and unmotivated and 2) muscle confusion is the way to go, at least to some extent.
Muscle confusion is the idea that the body adapts to workouts and therefore you should switch things up so that as soon as your muscles start adapting to one thing, you switch up your routine. If you don't believe this is possible, consider this:
Have you ever looked at a living human cell under a microscope? Inside of cells theres a lot of activity going on in there. In fact you can see things moving in some cells. So, if these moving things are part of the human body, and the human body is the most advanced species on earth and is able to adapt to many things and is made entirely of these cells, would the cell not be able to adapt to certain things? Would a muscle cell not be able to adapt to being worked a certain amount of times at a certain time of day with the same amount of weight? I believe it definately would be able to and this idea therefore supports the idea of muscle confusion.
Ok so now that I've written way more than I expected....
What I'm trying to say is two things: Do what you feel is right and maybe for a week or two do a full body routine then swtich to a split one.
thanks a lot :) well, yeah i
thanks a lot :)
well, yeah i know about the muscle cells, im studying anatomy and phys.
i was thinkin of a split program for 4 weeks and then change some of the exercises...
i hate fullbody programs cause they are boring and i wanna work out everyday...
sometimes i even think i should make a 7 split program and only focus on 1 body part a day
but i dont know if thats a good idea either???
***You're never lost, only misplaced***
hmm
you could try a 7 day split program...just to see what happens. Its not like your in a competition or anything lol what do you have to lose? If by the end of the week you feel like its working and your stronger, then I suppose it has worked....If you really train hard each day you could potentially get some good results, but it would take more time for those results to show.
On the other hand, I'm not sure I would personally do a 7 day split program...It doesnt seem very appealing to me, but if it does to you, try it.
Full body I think is the
Full body I think is the best for starters... it's the fastest type of training to get you that hyper trophy mode where you gain good... But your training experience will be better and your muschles will need more time for each group... and training passes for 3-4 hours a day with full- body would not be the funniest:) so split programs are nice when you'r training experience is demanding for more... personally i use 2 split programs and train for 2 hours 5 days a weak and are enjoying my self. but i don't now how much im growing...