A response to my video blog on bulking percentages...
The response below is from Jamie Yu. I thought I would post my reply to his comments for all to see, so look for those below as well...
"Brian, I have been reading your blogs and watching the vids you produced for us guys on here and I have noticed you aren't a massive proponent on 'high' protein regimes.
For myself on the other hand, I'm afraid that I am a proponent of high protein diets, we at least 2.5g per kilogram of bodyweight (erring on the side of lean bodyweight where possible).
That's not to say that your blueprints do not work, but could it be said that one size doesn't always fit all? Is it possible that high protein, moderate carbs, low-moderate fats could work?
Believe me I am not trying to dis-spell any of the great work you have put together and I know that for myself a few of your blogs have proven a might useful to me in the past. So again, thank you for that.
It's always great to back up what you say with science whether it be done clincally in vivo or vitro but in practice I have noticed guys making some pretty decent gains from consuming the higher % of protein and they were 'natural or clean' athletes."
Hey Jamie,
It really depends on how you define high protein diets!! If you define them as 2.5 gms pro/kg, then I am NOT a fan :) Numerous studies have been done on both trained and untrained subjects and most have not found any benefit of going above 2 gms pro/kg even when in a cutting situation. The time to follow a highER protein diet is when cutting (and calories are very low) or when you have an insulin resistance-related disease condition. It may also be of some benefit to modestly increase protein and curb carbs when trying to lose weight, but in these two latter situations (weight loss or insulin resistance, but not cutting), carbs would still typically make up a higher percentage of the diet. In other words, some might follow a 40-30-30 regimen, with 40% coming from carbs. It might even be a bit lower than this, but other than cutting for a contest (and even this is debatable), there is no situation I can think of when protein should make up the greatest percentage of your calorie intake.
I absolutely agree that one size doesn't fit all...and that's why you don't see me typing out meal plans for people on this site. I'm a HUGE fan of individualization. I would argue that many on this site eat the same way everyday (higher protein), so I'm trying to individualize for some based on their workout regimens. That said, when I see multiple people blogging their heavy, protein-focused meals with minimal carb because of fears of fat gain, I feel pretty confident in doing a video blog telling most folks on the site to increase their carbohydrate. The fact of the matter is that many of our guests here are too low in carbohydrate, from both a health and performance standpoint, so a blanket recommendation to increase consumption is occasionally warranted. Remember, during intense exercise, carbohydrates are our main energy source and are depleted. Ultimately, it's NOT that I'm NOT a huge fan of high-protein diets, but I simply don't see many people dealing with situations that call for very high-protein diets!! Even if they are, the protein is so high already, a carbohydrate increase would prove beneficial. Remember, it doesn't take a lot of protein to increase muscle tissue...
To answer your question....yes, high protein diets can work, but work for what?? In the situations detailed above, I would argue they can work...
You mention some guys make decent gains with high protein diets...I assume you mean weight here. Again, if levels of protein are too high, the excess will be converted to sugar anyway. Plus, carbs stimulate insulin, which is the most anabolic hormone in the body. Therefore, there's no reason to pile on the protein even in the face of a bulking situation. Carbohydrates are ideal for bulking and muscle gain, along with protein and healthy fats.
I'll use this analogy...you can do everything in the gym with terrible form and still get massive, but it doesn't mean it's the right way to do it. You can also be very successful with weight loss when taking in a high-protein diet, and you may lose it faster initially compared with a low-fat diet, but since weight loss evens out after a year or so, why restrict carbs to such a degree in the first place? It's still a calorie issue first and foremost.
I would argue that many folks on this site could get to their goals, and some even faster, if they increased their carbohydrates in an intelligent fashion....and they would be healthier for it, thanks to increased variety, micronutrients, fiber, phytochemicals etc.
Hopefully you see my point here :)
Thanks for the feedback...and feel free to respond!!
Brian Zehetner MS,RD,CSSD,CSCS
JamCore and Myfittribe "Nutrition Guy"
P.S. I have worked with numerous professional bodybuilders and figure competitors.
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nice
when I see multiple people blogging their heavy, protein-focused meals with minimal carb because of fears of fat gain, I feel pretty confident in doing a video blog telling most folks on the site to increase their carbohydrate. burn the fat feed the muscle
Quick Sourcing
To quote Brian Zehetner in another blog:
Maintainence levels protein: 0.8g/kg bodyweight (perhaps Lean Body Mass is what he means???)
Athletes & Bodybuilders trying to put on size: 1.2-1.5g/kg bodyweight (again perhaps LBM) and NEVER higher than 2.0g/kg bodyweight.
And for those WITH kidney disease, its been shown that too much protein can speed up kidney decline due to hyperfiltration... for those with NORMAL kidneys, there have not been any studies to show anythign. regardless of what you have "heard"
.:. Lifestyle Changes .:.The REAL Beginner's Guide to Fitness, Health & Nutrition
http://www.myfittribe.com/blogs/imjj123/20070610/starting-out.html
Will_I_Am (855c)
eating the right food
hi brian ive reading yor profile and i could do with wiv yor help . i packed up smoking about 2 years now and really all my life i've always wanted to be in good shape and when i packed up smoking i headed straight for the gym and i'm not sure if i'm doing it right or eating right. so what i am asking from you is how to train properly and whats the best food to eat and whether i should have been taking in more protien or carbs. i would like a diet set out so that i can follow. i would like to bulk out quickly as when i train i feel i train hard but maybe not as hard as i sure do. when training do you think it's better to train wiv heavey weights and less reps or light weights and more reps. whats the best way to lose yor tummy.
thanks for reading
Absolutely..
Thanks for going into more detail on this as I'm sure I have asked you to repeat yourself on this subject again.
I absolutely respect your opinions on this matter and know they hold much water. I just wanted you to break this down again for me. So thank you for taking the time out to do this.
I think for me, I'm a bit old school with things of this nature however I'm glad you agree one size does not fit all. I guess higher protein has always worked for me but in retrospect 2.5 per kg is probably a tad to high. My carbs were not on the excessive high side when bulking but they were there. When I was dieting I probably made the mistake of dropping my carbs to low and raising protein to high. I do know of the importance of carbs and fat related with insulin function and testosterone production respectively but didn't pay enough attention to them. My portion of protein was always bigger in size on the plate in relation to my carbohydrate and fat. If I'm honest though I do love protein..chicken/fish/beef/eggs, it had to be super sized!
Like with anything in life, we are always changing, always evolving and I will indeed take what you have said on board and manipulate my protein/carbs and fat intake somewhat and see what happens. I could see bigger improvements!
Again, thanks for your candor.
Maybe an old dog like me CAN learn new tricks! ;-)
Carbs before protein
I'll use this analogy...you can do everything in the gym with terrible form and still get massive, but it doesn't mean it's the right way to do it. You can also be very successful with weight loss when taking in a high-protein diet, and you may lose it faster initially compared with a low-fat diet, but since weight loss evens out after a year or so, why restrict carbs to such a degree in the first place? It's still a calorie issue first and foremost.
-Brian
Anyone who knows me will agree, this is exactly what I try to dig into peoples brains. Most "hardcore" bodybuilders or even youngsters, eat 300g of protein or more and think that that's right. Hrm. Not so much. I agree with what Brian has said. Our messages are the same, despite delivery. I tell them even if it works, you might do better to do higher carbs and lower your protein for many reasons, besides health. Number one, protein is expensive, why spend all that money if you only need X amount.
Another reason im a big fan is because I dislike the idea of carb-haters. People who think its carbs that make you fat. I myself am a big proponent of proof that carbs are not the enemy. Among many MANY of our MFT members who I have seen eat X amount of carbs, its just that they eat the right kinds. In fact, I would go so far as to not even count candies, etc. as carbs in any discussion because they arent even food, they're just man-made messes really. I say this becuase my counter to carbs are bad, is that i first must discuss the healthy carbohydrates, and then the bad carbohydrates, which are unfortuantely what people are thinking of when they say carbs.
When the word carbs are mentioned, here's the typical immediate thought:
when it should be more like this:
.:. Lifestyle Changes .:.The REAL Beginner's Guide to Fitness, Health & Nutrition
http://www.myfittribe.com/blogs/imjj123/20070610/starting-out.html
Will_I_Am (75c)
nice reply and pics to go
nice reply and pics to go with it. That is very true how most people think of carbs as breads and pastries instead of fibrous veggie carbs
!!
"I assume you mean weight here. Again, if levels of protein are too high, the excess will be converted to sugar anyway. Plus, carbs stimulate insulin, which is the most anabolic hormone in the body. Therefore, there's no reason to pile on the protein even in the face of a bulking situation. Carbohydrates are ideal for bulking and muscle gain, along with protein and healthy fats."
Every one read, then re read! Brian you the man brother.
I always said this, and learned it from you Brian originally from day one back when there was about 5 members on mFT, i take that quote above to the grave, its the truth and it works!
"Bigger than yesterday... Smaller than tomorrow." - G Diesel